I wrote this book to help parents take their kids out fishing successfully and inexpensively. In it, I share my secrets for how to set up a fishing trip for kids, and also discuss exactly what tackle and gear you need, so you don’t spend more money than necessary.
I discuss my childhood and what fishing meant to me as a young boy staring out in wonder at the beauty of Lake Champlain. I make the case that fishing positively impacts children throughout all stages of their life. Because of this, I give tips on how you can get your children into the sport regardless of their age.
The book includes a chapter on fishing safely, to make sure everyone keeps smiling. It also discusses considerations as well as useful skills and tricks that you should know before you head off onto the lake. I go beyond the obvious with each and try to really hone in on what parents need to know to keep their little ones safe and smiling.
The book spends considerable time discussing common freshwater gamefish that are worth targeting with your kids. I teach how to find them and catch them effectively. I also try to give you an idea of which species are appropriate to catch with children of certain ages. This book doesn’t, however, cover every fishing lure. Instead, it concentrates on ways that are very effective while fishing with children.
In some ways, this book is a “tell all” about my own stupidity. I wrote at length about several stupid mistakes that I’ve made in the hopes that parents won’t repeat them. I also discuss some short cuts and “eureka!” moments I’ve had over the years.
I believe this book will save you money. I teach ways to re-purpose common tools you already own, rather than buying specialized gear that you don’t really need. A special effort is made on preaching a minimalist approach to fishing with kids that doesn’t break the bank.
While the book isn’t lake specific, I do describe some famous fishing spots on Lake Champlain. For example, I discuss the grass flats near Ticonderoga and break down why they are so productive. This should enable you to find other places like them in your own favorite lake.
Finally, I devote a considerable portion of the book to helping parents decide what type of boat they should purchase. As a plus, I also discuss how to control and use that boat once you buy it.
Essentially, I’ve aimed to take the information in this blog, build upon it, and put it into a convenient book to keep at home or in your boat. I’d love to hear from you if you want to let me know if I’ve succeeded.
Second Book: My Awesome Guide to Freshwater Fishing
Already know how to fish? Looking for a book that helps get your kids into it instead? Then my second book is just for you! In “My Awesome Guide to Freshwater Fishing,” I help children do it all on their own! A great read for kids who want to spend their summers outside instead of on a screen. Pick it up on Amazon today!
John Paxton
Want to learn how to take your kids out fishing? Do you have a friend who might need a hand? Click the pictures below to purchase my helpful books!
I sit here early this Thanksgiving morning just grateful that God has blessed me with two happy and healthy children, a wonderful wife, and the capacity to take all three of them fishing from time to time. We have a warm house in a safe neighborhood and full bellies. Life is good for now.
I hope all of you reading this also have these things, but if you’re going through a rough patch, just remember that the sun will rise again tomorrow, water will still taste good, and life will be enough, to paraphrase Marc Antony from HBO’s “Rome.”
It’s been awhile since I’ve written anything, mostly because my work duties have expanded and I’ve just found I have so little time to handle a great deal of things. I hope some of you return from time to time to read past blogs that you’ve found helpful, and I’ll get back to it in the near future.
I do want to point out to you that there are good Black Friday deals to be had tomorrow, and there are also things that should have been priced at or below the “special” asking price to begin with. It can be tempting to splurge (A cashier at the sporting goods store once asked me, “Sir, are you ready for your order?”) but if I could give you any advice about tomorrow, splurge on stuff that you actually need.
One thing you might consider trying if you haven’t so far is picking up a baitcaster. I don’t suggest this for people with little time or little children, but if you’re into the sport you ought to learn one eventually, and Bass Pro Shops usually has an awesome deal on their Pro Qualifier this time of year. It’s a very high quality reel that you can often get for the price of an entry-level model. While it is a little heavy, it casts well, has a few braking systems, and is forgiving for the novice.
I also like to use this time to restock lures and items that I lost last summer. It’s not as glamorous as a new rod or reel, but it’s the business end of your set up. Terminal tackle is especially important and good deals can be had. Soft plastics also have good sales going on, many at 40% off or so. Check the usual online distributors (Bass Pro Shops, Monster Tackle, etc.)
Anyway, it’s a shorter post today. I just felt like after so much time away from this I had to break the ice and write something again, but I do have plans for the day as I suspect most of you do and have to run.
Given that I’ve been fishing with my children for a few years now, I thought I would give parents some tips on how to take their kids out fishing with them at various ages. This will be the first in a series of posts that will continue each year as my children grow older. Here, I’ll talk about how to fish with a baby or infant as defined as a child that’s between 0 – 18 months old. You can also read my post about fishing with 2-3 year old kids here.
I’ve already given a high-level accounting of this in a post where I discussed what is a good age to take a child fishing. In it, I discussed how to best prepare them each step of the way. Here, I’d like to dive into the specifics of actually heading out: what you should expect and what you should bring along.
My wife and I had to figure this out by trial and error and I’ve wasted my share of time and money figuring this out. Hopefully, this series will help save you some grief.
Set Your Expectations
Regardless of the age of your kids, the first thing you’ll always need to do is set your expectations. I hope it goes without saying that if you’re taking your baby along fishing, you’re not actually expecting to catch a fish. Rather, your goal is to just hang out with them outside and start introducing them to the sights, sounds, and smells of nature. Any fish you happen to catch is a bonus. If you’re going it alone without any spousal backup, don’t count on it happening!
More so than anything else, fishing with a baby or infant is investing in their future. They probably won’t get too much out of the experience now, but in a few years you’ll have fun going through old photos with them and showing them how they “liked fishing” from a young age. This will help them develop a sense of self and some pride in their early fishing acumen. Perhaps this will encourage them to want to head out more with you when they’re older. My son beams with pride every time Facebook shows up with an old timeline photo of him fishing as an infant.
Catching fish is a plus, but depending on how young your infant is, they might not even notice it if you catch one, or have any idea what to think of it. They could have a whole range of emotions, but apathy seems pretty common for the youngest children.
Pick a Good Time
Fish tend to bite best early in periods of low light, such as dusk and dawn. Unfortunately, this is completely irrelevant when fishing with babies. When you consider a good time to go fishing with an infant, it has nothing to do with the fish and everything to do with their nap and feeding schedule.
You know your child best and should aim to go out with them when they’ll have the least amount of reasons to be cranky. They need to be rested, fed, and lively. If this means that you’re headed out at high noon, you’re headed out at high noon. If this means you’re going out at 3 p.m., that’s your time. Don’t try and plan a fishing trip with infants around when the fish bite. That’s just asking for trouble.
This can complicate things, to say the least. Depending on where you are and what time of year it is, the sun can be pretty brutal at these times. You’re going to need to consider this and either find a good spot in the shade to fish, or invest in some good infant sun gear. Always go in before they get too hot.
Dress for Success
Your baby needs to be comfortable while out fishing. This (along with making sure they’re fed and rested) is something that you can control, so you should control it.
If it’s cold, make sure they’re bundled up with extra clothes, and make sure that those clothes stay dry. While I wouldn’t recommend taking babies fishing in the rain, waterproof clothing is also useful for keeping water spray off of children when driving a boat.
If it’s hot, make sure they have on light clothes. There are some great infant clothes out there that have built-in SPF protection and keep your kids cool. They are long sleeve which is a bit counter-intuitive, but they are very lightweight. I’ve yet to hear my son complain about wearing one even on the hottest of days.
If you’re headed out on a boat for your fishing trip, bear in mind that the sun will be bearing down on you, your baby or infant, and also the seats. People tend to forget about the latter, but all surfaces on your boat will heat up and can hurt exposed skin. You’re better off dressing your baby in some light pants that cover their delicate inner thighs than just a onesie.
As a reminder, all states require children to have a life jacket on. Some require this only when the boat is underway, and others require that children wear it at all times while on a boat. Because this is the one piece of clothing that your kids can’t take off, it makes sense that you should invest money in something that is comfortable and functional.
My Recommendation: Mustang Survival
While I don’t always advocate buying the very best of any type of gear, when it comes to life jackets, I spare no expense. I have invested considerable money over they years outfitting my entire family in Mustang Survival’s line of life jackets. I can’t recommend them enough. They are as comfortable as a life jacket can be, and they give me the peace of mind knowing that my kids are safe in them. They also hold up very well to pool testing, as I’ve observed that they keep my children’s heads above the water, as designed.
Boating is perfectly safe for babies and infants, but only once they are old enough to properly fit in their life jackets. This is not something that you want to stretch, the reason being that a properly-fitting infant life jacket is designed to right them and keep their head above water. If the life jacket is too loose, it will not work properly and may not keep your child’s mouth and nose out of the sea.
You must wear your kill switch whenever you are boating. This is even more critical if you’re fishing with babies or infants who can’t swim. This is a device that clamps onto you and the boat’s ignition switch and will kill power to your outboard once it is detached. It functions exactly the same as the safety tethers on treadmills.
If the driver isn’t wearing this and is ejected, the torque of the engine will cause the boat to turn in a circle, meaning that it will come around and strike anything or anyone in the water. This is an exceptionally dangerous situation and one where an infant would have no chance. Insist that your boat’s driver wear one at all times that the motor is running.
Bring Your Own Shade
It’s pretty rare to find a shady spot to fish. You’re mostly in the middle of the water with the sun bearing down on you and then also reflecting off the water’s surface. Babies and infants don’t do well without shade, so you’re going to need to bring shade with you on your fishing trip. Their car seat can work just fine, or you could invest in a little shade tent. Just make sure you have a place to put it when it is completely unfolded. These things are borderline impossible to get back into their case. Tthe instructions stink and make no sense. I hate, hate, hate them, but they’re a necessary evil with little kids around the sun. And no, I will not provide a link to one!
If you do go with the car seat, make sure you don’t leave them strapped in, especially if on a boat. That would be a massive safety concern around water.
Take along a Snack & Water
Infants get hungry when they feel like it, even if that’s in the midst of a fishing trip. The last thing you want to do is be out in the middle of the lake without anything for your baby to chew on. Just remember that not everything lasts well on a boat. Also, you could be somewhere far from help. I’d definitely recommend leaving anything remotely resembling a choking hazard at home. Grapes have absolutely no place on a fishing trip with infants, babies, or young children. Or, for that matter, adults.
Likewise, have water and a way to keep it cool. Many people think to bring along a drink but don’t consider just how fast it will heat up on a summer day. A little cooler is indispensable for a fishing trip with kids.
Bring a Friend to Play With the Baby While You Fish
I’ve seen some posts by people who put their kids in backpacks or harnesses and wade into rivers with them on their backs. I’m not going to tell others how to raise their kids, but missteps happen and it’s easy to see how one there could be tragic. To me, the photo op isn’t worth the risk, at least near rivers. I think you could get away with this just fine next to a calm lake or pond. The worst that should happen there is you get wet and an earful from your spouse.
You want that spouse on your good side. I recommend bringing them, a grandparent, or just any old friend along with you as backup. In fact, it might make sense to have them be the primary people fishing so that you can concentrate on really selling the experience to your baby and “oooing” and “ahhhing” them into smiling and enjoying themselves.
Take turns fishing and entertaining your kid, if they’ll let you. Sometimes they just want one parent, and I’d recommend that they get them in this situation. If they don’t, they might associate fishing with not being able to cling onto Mom or Dad, which could negatively affect their interest.
Get a Fish in the Livewell or Bucket as Fast as You Can
This is a common theme on my blog, but it is all the more important with younger children. Your goal is to get a fish–any fish–into the livewell or bucket as fast as you possibly can. If you catch even one sunfish and plop it in there, your baby will fall in love. Kids love water, animals, and slime from a very young age. Even an infant wants to peer into the bucket and try to pet their new fish friend. Just make sure the fish you put in there is legal unless your child also has a thing for game wardens!
Sell Every Moment of It
Remember that you’re dealing with a small little person who gets a big kick out of seeing you cover and uncover your eyes with your hands. Any little thing can be a huge moment of wonder and joy to them, so make sure that every step of the way is celebrated.
You want to be the ultimate cheerleader. Every time your spouse casts, do a little cheer. You can have fun with it and be a little sarcastic: “Yay! Daddy didn’t get the lure stuck in the tree!” You can also show them how the lure “bloops” into the water and make that sound each time it splashes down – “Bloop! Bloop! Bloop!” – your kids will love it!
You want to have a grand performance for your little one. Keep changing it up every 10-15 seconds to match their attention span. Each turtle, squirrel, or bird you see should be named and have a nice little voice or theme song that you sing. If you notice them looking at something, look at it too and make a big deal out of it.
When you catch a fish, make a huge deal out of it no matter how small it is. Act like it’s the greatest thing that ever happened. Go ahead, use whatever high squeaky voice gets your baby amped. If they want to touch the fish, let them. Just make sure you have wipes on hand so you can clean them off before they stick their hands in their mouth.
Bring Distractions for Your Baby, or Have a Short Fishing Trip
Bring along some toys or other distractions in case your full performance isn’t captivating enough for them. Those little teething wafers work pretty well as it seems to take their full attention to eat them. Rattles or other things that can grab their attention and are safe for them to grab are important.
If you don’t have child-safe distractions, you could try showing them some fishing lures. This runs the considerable risk of a meltdown when they reach for them and you won’t let them grab them given the hooks. My son used to absolutely love looking at my crankbaits (through a plastic case, of course).
The bottom line is, bring something to distract them, or plan on going home early!
Know Your Exit, and Factor in the Commute
Babies and even infants can only handle short fishing excursions, and this includes the entire time in the car. Now is not the time to take the kids to that prized lake an hour away that holds all the best fish. The little community pond five minutes down the street is a far better choice.
If boating, you’ll also want to consider the time at the ramp. In a perfect world we’d all be able to spend our 2-3 minutes launching and retrieving and not have to wait for anyone.
Unfortunately as many of you know that is not the case. There are often long lines to launch or retrieve a boat, sometimes filled with people who don’t know what they’re doing. You need to factor this in and give yourself at least an extra twenty minutes or so leeway to get back in.
Failure to do this will mean that you’re gently floating near the ramp with an infant screaming to high heaven, waiting for that weekend warrior to figure out how to retrieve his jet boat.
Long holiday weekends are a bad time to take your infant for a boat ride. You’re far better off waiting for a day that won’t be as busy.
Have a Good Time!
Just remember that there will be plenty of times to go “fishing.” This time, you’re just having fun with your new baby. Think of it as showing them something that is important to you. Taking a walk around a pond with them and showing them their first duck or driving slowly down the lake watching the sea gulls is enough.
Keep things in perspective, keep a good attitude, and don’t worry so much about catching fish. Just try to ensure that they are comfortable, safe, entertained, and loved and you’ll start to build an interest that may last their entire life.
As mentioned earlier, if your baby is a bit older (say, 14-18 months or so) and you want to try to get them involved in the action, I did write a post with some advice on how to do so. You can read that to help your child learn to cast, or catch their first fish.
The purpose of this article was to give you a better idea of some of the little things that you might not consider, while you have time to do something about them (you don’t want to realize you should have brought shade while you’re stuck in the middle of the lake).
I hope you found this article useful. If you did, please consider sharing it so that it can help others. If you’re interested in learning more about taking kids fishing, check out my book, Fishing with Kids: A Parent’s Guide. You also might consider subscribing to FishingFather’s Facebook page to be updated when new content arrives.
Having a large fish break your line is almost a rite of passage in fishing. As much as it pains us, it’s that kind of experience that keeps us coming back for more and compels us to better understand our sport and how to prevent the frustrating experience from happening again. So why do fish keep breaking your line, anyway?
Your fishing line will break when a force is applied to the line that exceeds the line’s pound test capacity. This is usually caused byone of several reasons:
Your dragis set too tight;
The fish gained leverage;
You were too overeager during the fight (this is a big problem for kids and newer anglers);
There is a defect in your line or knot;
You ran into a fish with sharp teeth, and weren’t using a leader.
Let’s explore this a little further and go into all the reasons fish might break you off so that you can figure out what to do about it.
Define the Problem
To prevent fish from breaking your line, you need to understand which one of these issues is causing the problem, as each has a specific correction. As mentioned above, most of the time when a fish breaks your line, it’s for one of the following reasons:
You have your drag set too tight;
You’re using too light of line for your abilities;
The fish gained leverage;
You were too overeager in the fight;
There is a defect in your line;
Your knot is poorly tied;
The fish cut the line with their teeth.
Your Fishing Reel’s Drag Is Set Too Tight
Contrary to popular belief, the pound test of your fishing line is not the be all, end all. What I mean by that is that it is perfectly possible to successfully land fish that weigh significantly more than the pound test your fishing line is rated for. One reason for this is because of the reel’s drag system.
When a fish bites your lure, it tugs on the line and generally tries to swim away from resistance. Thus, a fish will typically try to swim away from you while you are trying to pull it closer towards your boat or shore. Because you and the fish are both pulling in opposite directions, force is applied to the fishing line.
How the Drag Works:
Let’s say you were tightly holding onto a stick that had some fishing line tied to it. Let’s say you only had 10′ of fishing line attached to the end of your stick. If a fish bit your lure and swam away, it would impart force onto the line. The moment you pulled the stick back at the same time to try and stop the fish, you too would be imparting force. If the sum of both of your actions exceeds the pound test rating of the line, it would snap and the fish would swim away with some new jewelry.
The drag system allows the fish to pull off some line without snapping it. It works by applying a certain tension to the spool in pounds. To strip line, the fish must exert more force than the drag’s tension setting.
Thus, if you were using 6 lb test line, and set your drag to 3 lbs, a fish would need to exceed 3 lbs of pressure to strip line from the reel. If they could only muster 2 lbs of force, they would not strip line (but it would not break, either).
Finally, if the fish exerted 10 lbs of pressure on the 6 lb test line, having your drag set at 3 lbs would mean that only 3 lbs of force was imparted on the line (and the fish), so it would not snap.
Accordingly, you should not set your drag setting higher than the pound test your fishing line is rated for.
How To Tell If Your Drag Is Set Right
An easy way to check this is just to pull some line with your hand. If it comes off too easily, your drag is set too loose. If you can’t feel any pressure, neither will the fish. This means you’ll never tire them out or make any gains. Tighten it until you find a good balance where line pulls off fairly easily but it still takes some effort. This will allow your drag to wear down larger fish effectively and eventually land them.
You’re Using Too Light of Line for Your Ability
Although a drag will help a skilled fisherman land a large fish, landing a monster is still a challenging experience. Much can (and will!) go wrong. Many experienced anglers purposefully use lighter line because it increases the challenge for them. If you’re new to this, you might want to avoid that. Just concentrate on getting the fish into the boat in the first place.
Use a line that is strong enough that you can get away with a mistake or two while you’re learning. You don’t know when the next fish is going to bite, and perhaps only one will strike all day. I would not recommend going below 6 lb test line while you are starting off. This is a good balance in that most freshwater fish you’re likely to encounter will be below this size, but the line is also strong enough to give you a fighting chance of landing the occasional larger fish.
You also might consider using braid as it is significantly stronger than other types of line of the same diameter. I’m not crazy about using it with kids as it can cut you badly if you’re not careful. Assuming you’re a grown adult, you should go for it, as it is a great product. I’m personally a fan of PowerPro as it is easy to use, doesn’t ruin my line guides, and has served me well for years.
The Fish Gained Leverage Which Allowed It to Break Your Line
Another common reason that a fish will break your line is that they gain some leverage. This is usually occurs when they wrap the line around a stick or other object that prevents the drag system from working. Once the line wraps around a stick, the stick is essentially the new spool. If the fish can impart more force than the line can withstand, it will break.
Fish can also gain leverage by swimming into your trolling motor, outboard, or even another fisherman’s line. Anything that gets between the drag and the hook is going to be a problem. Play your fish carefully and ask your fishing buddies to reel in their lines if a particularly big one hits.
Heavy weeds are another common way that fish can gain leverage. The second the fish senses that something is wrong, they’ll bolt for the thickest cover they can find. You want to do what you can to prevent this from happening (usually, by fishing with heavy enough line that you can turn them in before they can get to cover).
It’s certainly a balancing act as you don’t want to put too much pressure on the line yourself by trying to keep the fish away from heavy cover, so do what seems to make sense. Your best bet is to be aware of your surroundings and have a plan for how you’re going to play a fish if and when it strikes on your next cast. You don’t want to be caught daydreaming around laydowns.
You Were Too Overeager or Played the Fish Wrong
Many lines snap and many fish are lost at the last second because of an overeager angler. Remember that water is more buoyant than air. If you try and lift a large fish from the water into the boat, its full weight will test the line. Take care with how you land your fish. I’ve written articles to explain how to net a fish properly and how to land fish without a net to prevent your trophy from getting away.
It’s also possible to be too overeager while playing your fish. Take care and avoid trying to horse them in until they’re ready. Only rush things if you absolutely must keep them away from some sharp rocks or a gnarly laydown.
Let your rod help you land the fish. Always make sure that you maintain a bend in your rod. NEVER allow the line to point directly at the fish. The rod’s bend will absorb much of the shock of a running fish. If you point the line directly at the fish, you lose this benefit.
There is a Defect in Your Line or Gear
Check your line often, especially if you are fishing near rocks, wood, bridge pilings, or anything else that is likely to fray your line. The instant that the line has a cut or dent, it will no longer retain its pound test rating. Just consider what would happen to a rope if you unraveled part of it. The same concept applies.
Some lines don’t do well in the sun, or after having been submerged for a long time. Others age poorly and become brittle over time. You’ll find that most professional anglers are paranoid about their line and change it often. They are afraid that if they don’t put on fresh line, a fish will break it soon. While that isn’t a cost-effective option for most of us, you do want to do what you can to take care of your gear. Put it away when you’re done with it and don’t leave it outside exposed to the elements longer than necessary.
As you go through your day, it’s usually a good idea to strip off 6′ to 7′ of line and retie every so often. This ensures that the business end near the fish is fresh, and will help avoid situations where you just didn’t notice the line was frayed.
Finally, it should go without saying that anytime you notice your line was wrapped around or near a sharp part of the fish (be it a pike’s teeth, or even just a bluegill’s gill plate), you’ll want to closely inspect your line and see if it has any damage. When in doubt, change it out.
Defective Line Guides
It’s also worth pointing out that the issue might not be with your line, but the line guides. If you’ve made a habit of hooking your lure to the line guides to keep it in place, you may have cut or damaged them with the hooks. These cuts can have sharp edges that might be damaging your line as it passes through it.
If you don’t have the coin to send it in a rod for repairs, you can try to fix it. One way is to place an epoxy into the cut and then sand it down flush so it no longer is something that can catch the line and fray it. Another is to replace it outright. Here is a video that shows you how to replace your line guides.
Your Knot is Poorly Tied
Even the best fishing knots won’t retain their complete line strength (source). Regardless, if you err in tying one the chances are you’ve made it weaker than usual. A poorly tied knot will not withstand the same force as a well-tied one, will make your line more susceptible to breaking if the fish takes a sudden plunge.
The next time that you tie a knot that doesn’t come out very well, take a closer look at it. You’ll probably see that it is pinching against itself at a weird angle. This is not ideal. If you make a mistake and your knot doesn’t come out right, invest the extra few seconds to try again. This is one place where you don’t want to cut corners.
A well-tied knot is a thing of beauty that we all should aspire to. The last thing you want to worry about when a fish is on the line is if your knot will hold.
Some Fish Break Your Line With Their Teeth
The simplest explanation for why a fish broke your fishing line is that they had sharp teeth. Many freshwater fish such as northern pike, chain pickerel, muskellunge, bowfin, and walleye have the kind of smile any dentist would fear and if you encounter them without a leader, it could be a very short fight.
Even fish that we don’t normally think of as having “teeth” like bass can damage line to the point where they can break off. Most predatory fish that lack what one might consider “true” teeth at least have a very rough, sandpaper-like texture to their mouths to prevent their prey from getting away. The same teeth that cause “bass thumb” after a great day of fishing are equally capable of fraying line if given the chance. Check your line often to make sure it still looks good!
I wrote an article that discusses leaders in more detail. I discuss when and where you should use them and what type of leader you want depending on the situation. You can read it here as it will help you overcome these toothy lake monsters.
The bottom line is if you’re fishing in a lake that has apex predators with teeth, you’re going to need to either use a strong leader, use a technique that’s unlikely to allow them to reach the line with their teeth, or prepare to lose a few fish.
Let’s Hope Fish Never Break Your Line Again!
The sinking feeling of losing a fish is not fun, but you can’t let it demotivate you. You never know if that fish had a buddy right next to it, so go ahead and shake it off, retie, and cast again. If you just lost a giant, doing this is easier said than done. At least if you know that you did everything you could to prevent the fish from breaking off, it will help you move on.
Before you cast your line out, make sure that it is in good condition and your knot is tied well. You wouldn’t want your fishing line to break on your cast! If you think there are pike lurking nearby, consider a leader. Test your drag and make sure it’s where you want it. Expect that a fish will bite on each cast and have a plan for how you’re going to steer them away from heavy cover where they can break you off. When you get them close to the boat, make sure their weight is properly supported so you don’t lose them at the last second.
There’s a lot to go wrong and even more to forget in the heat of the moment. At least if you take care of the maintenance before the fish bites, you’ll have a fighting chance.
I hope this article helped you understand why fish keep breaking your line and gave you some pointers on how to prevent it. If you have any additional questions please leave a comment below or send me an email and I’ll do my best to help you.
As always, if you found this article helpful please share it so it can help others. You can also check out my book, Fishing with Kids: A Parent’s Guide for more information on the gear and skills you’ll need to successfully take your kids fishing.
Braided fishing line can be a great product, but it stands out. It’s usually dark green, black, brown, or even bright yellow—none of which are exactly subtle. Given that, it’s only normal to wonder if fish can see it, or if you should use a leader with braided line.
As with most questions about fishing, “it depends.” You don’t need to use a leader with braided line if you’re fishing in murky water or with fast moving baits such as spinnerbaits. You should consider using a leader with braid if fish are likely to have a long look at your lure or if you’re in very clear water. There is also some benefit to using a fluorocarbon leader with braided line if you’re fishing around sharp obstructions like barnacle-encrusted piers or rocks that are likely to cause abrasions.
Let’s spend a little time discussing the pros and cons of using a leader so you can make an educated decision and optimize your time on the water.
The Benefits of Using a Leader with Braided Line
If you’re going to tie on a leader to any fishing line, it needs to serve the purpose of minimizing the main line’s drawbacks and flaws. With braid, the four biggest issues are visibility, abrasion resistance, and (ironically) its strength and rigidity.
A Leader Is Less Likely to be Seen Than Braid
As mentioned earlier, braided line is exceptionally visible in the water. It is basically colored rope, and unless you’re in very murky water or fishing around similarly-colored vegetation, it’s going to stand out.
This doesn’t really matter much if you’re using a fast technique where the fish aren’t going to get a good look at the lure. I’ve never found the need to tie on a leader when using a spinnerbait, for example, as the fish have such little time to make a decision and react that they aren’t going to notice the line.
It can, however, make a huge difference if you have a slower presentation such as a drop shot or plastic worm where you expect the fish to size up your offering and consider its options, especially if you’re in clear what were the braid is going to stick out.
Fluorocarbon is a great leader material because it is practically invisible underwater. This eliminates one of braid’s main drawbacks, which might be the difference between catching fish or going home empty handed.
Some Leader Materials are More Abrasion-Resistant Than Braid
Given how braided line is renowned for its strength, this might seem a bit counter-intuitive, but braided line isn’t very abrasion-resistant. In fact, it’s actually very easy to cut with scissors or even the sharp edge of a rock.
If you’re fishing for toothy predators or around rocks or barnacles, you might consider adding a fluorocarbon leader. While it won’t be as foolproof as a wire leader, it is less likely to be sliced through than braid and also is much less visible than wire.
A Leader is a Handy Breaking Point
While braid isn’t that abrasion-resistant, it is exceptionally strong, especially if it is pulled straight back. This makes it very difficult to break off if you lure happens to snag on an obstacle. In fact, trying to break it off can damage your equipment or even hurt you if you aren’t careful as the braid will tend to dig into whatever is pulling it, be that the spool, or your hand.
The point where the leader and braid attach is a weak spot. As we’ll see in the drawbacks section, that isn’t always a good thing, but in this case we can use it to our advantage. If you happen to get snagged, it is substantially easier to break off if you’re using some sort of leader than if you were fishing with straight braid.
A Leader Reduces Braid’s Stretch
While a major selling point for braided line is how it has very little stretch, that’s not always a good thing. If you are using lures with treble hooks such as crankbaits or top water poppers, you really want a little bit of stretch in your hook set or else you run the risk of ripping the thin hooks out of the fish’s mouth.
Sometimes, adding a leader allows you to get certain benefits of braid (such as how it can be used season after season) with certain presentations that are really better off with monofilament.
The Drawbacks of Using a Leader with Braided Line
As we’ve seen, there are plenty of good reasons to use a leader in the right situations, but it’s important to remember that like everything else, it has its time and place. There are several drawbacks that you need to be aware of. Specifically, it is one more thing to do, one more thing to fail, it can reduce your casting distance, it nullifies some of braids advantages, and it is often an unnecessary placebo.
It’s One More Thing to Do
I’m not trying to come across as lazy here but I will point out that fishing is a major multi-tasking event in the first place, especially if the wind is blowing or you have kids in the boat. I often bring my children out with me so I favor simplicity whenever possible. Using a leader is one more knot to tie which is not always the easiest thing to do with a full boat.
I am a huge believer in efficiency, especially when I have kids on the boat, so I usually prefer to just use a straight line without a leader. The more complicated your rig, the more frustrating fishing can be come in situations where you can’t devote 100% concentration to the task at hand.
It’s One More Thing to Fail
As mentioned earlier, this can be a double-edged sword. The connection point of your leader is going to be the weak spot in your rig. Sometimes you want this, such as when you’re stuck in the rocks. Other times, this is terrifying (such as when you have a huge fish on the line).
This also goes hand in hand with “it’s one more thing to do” discussed above. Any time that you add another knot, you have another knot that you need to keep an eye on and check as it can weaken over time.
Casting Distance Can Be Reduced
Regardless of the type of knot you choose to connect your leader to your main line, it’s going to create a little bump that is going to rub against your line guides while casting. If you’re using larger diameter lines, this bump can be substantial and can reduce your casting distance.
This probably won’t be a deal breaker or even that noticeable, but it is something to be aware of. When you’re power fishing you’re trying to cover as much water as possible over the course of the day and a foot off of each cast adds up over time.
Using a Leader Nullifies Braided Line’s Advantages
Two of braided line’s main strengths are that it can saw through vegetation with ease, and that it has virtually no stretch. Adding a leader will nullify both of these advantages.
Braid Cuts Through Vegetation – Leaders Don’t
A major advantage of braid is that it is sharp and will cut through aquatic vegetation easily. This will often enable you to work a lure through some gunk without fouling it, which means that fish will have a better chance of being deceived by the lure and biting.
This also makes braid great for shallow water trolling for species such as chain pickerel as you can often cut weeds off the line with a quick snap of the rod, rather than needing to reel the entire set up in and start over.
If you add a leader, you forgo this advantage and might find yourself picking more weeds off of your lure and fishing line. At the very least, this will be a time waster, but it’s also likely you’re missing fish because of it.
Braid Has Very Little Stretch – Leaders Do
The second major advantage of braid is that it has virtually no stretch. This is very important in situations where you require a rock solid hook set, or if you need to turn a fish immediately away from cover. Depending on the type of leader you use, significant stretch could be imparted which would make your hook set weaker and a break off more likely.
It’s Not Always Necessary
I suppose the main drawback to using a leader with braided fishing line is it simply isn’t necessary much of the time. If you’re fishing in stained water, it’s unlikely that a leader is going to make much difference to the line’s visibility, and if you’re fishing in open water, or with lures like spinnerbaits that are rarely broken off, there isn’t much use for a more abrasion-resistant line.
If you’re going to do something while fishing there ought to be a useful purpose. The sport is expensive enough as is and if you add on extras that aren’t totally necessary the costs are only going to increase.
Common Questions About Fishing Line Leaders
Now that we’ve discussed the pros and cons of using a leader, let’s dive into some of the more common questions associated with them.
What Type of Leader Should I Use?
You have three basic options when considering a leader for your braided fishing line: monofilament, fluorocarbon, and wire. Each has their advantages and drawbacks. The chart below will help you decide:
Use a Monofilament Leader If…
Use a Fluorocarbon Leader If…
Use a Wire Leader If…
You want your line to float.A monofilament leader is best if you are using top water lures.
You want your line to sink.A fluorocarbon leader would be better for
You’re targeting toothy predators like northern pike.
You want your line to stretch.A monofilament leader is a better option for lures with thin treble hooks that can easily pull out from the fish.
You don’t want your line to stretch much.A fluorocarbon leader would be a better choice if you wanted a solid hook set with little stretch.
The lure or bait you’re using is likely to be taken whole.Pike are unlikely to bite a spinnerbait off, but very likely to bite off a crankbait.
You are in open water, away from obstructions.
You are fishing near obstructions and want a line that is abrasion resistant.
Your presentation is fast enough or the water murky enough that the fish won’t notice the leader.
What Size Line Should I Use for My Leader?
An important consideration is the size (in pound test) of the leader material that you will use. In general, there are a few things to keep in mind when making this decision:
What type of fish are you targeting? If you’re trying to catch a fish with sharp teeth like a northern pike or musky, you’re going to want a heavier leader like 20 to 30 lb test that is less likely to be cut.
What type of presentation are you using? If you’re using a finesse presentation such as a drop shot, using too heavy of a leader could kill your lure’s action and you might want to scale down to a 6-12 lb test leader. On the other hand, if you intend to use a monster hook set like you’d need with a plastic worm, you’re going to want a stronger leader.
What size diameter is your main line? It can make life easier by using lines of similar diameters as the Double Uni Knot is very easy to tie and works especially well with lines of the same size. Most manufacturers will share their lines diameter right on the box so pick up a few and see which ones match up well.
How Do I Tie On a Leader?
If you decide to use a leader with your braided line, your next question is going to be how to go about tying one. I prefer the Double Uni Knot, especially when tying two lines of roughly the same diameter. Basically, you’re tying two Uni Knots against each other.
To tie it, follow these steps (bear in mind that steps 1-3 should be done one at a time for each knot, I just did them simultaneously for illustrative purposes):
Lay your leader and main line down parallel to each other, and then take the tag end of each and form a loop over both lines (Figure 1).
Spiral the tag end through the loop you created 3-4 times (Figure 2).
Pull the tag end to draw the single Uni Knots tight (Figure 3).
Pull each main line (at the same time) to pull the two Uni Knots together (Figure 4).
How Long Should My Leader Be?
This is situational but I prefer to keep my leaders short (within about 2′ to 4′) simply because I find that the longer a leader is, the harder it gets to use. Really, you want your leader to be as long as it needs to be and not an inch more.
If you’re using the type of wire leader that comes with a swivel, you’ll usually want it to be longer than the lure it is attached to, because if it is shorter, you run the risk of the lure’s hooks becoming caught by the swivel itself.
If you’re using a monofilament leader, the longer it is, the more stretch you’ll have. Sometimes it makes sense to have a longer one if you are concerned about pulling the lure from the fish’s mouth. Other times, you might find this counterproductive.
How Long of a Fluorocarbon Leader to Braid?
You’re typically going to want at least 12″ of fluorocarbon leader to braid, though more can be used if necessary. Chances are if you have a fluorocarbon leader on, you’re using it because you want some abrasion resistance. To determine how long it should be, you need to ask yourself how far up the line you expect these abrasions to happen. If you’re only worried about fish teeth, the leader can be much shorter than if you’re planning on dragging your lure through a rocky shoal.
Just remember that if your leader is too long, you’re going to have to cast the knot through your line guides, which can reduce casting distance.
What Type of Leader Should I Buy?
There are several purpose-built leaders on the market, but it may not be necessary to splurge for one depending on your application. If you’re just looking to cut down on braid’s visibility, for example, you can simply use a leader of fluorocarbon from a spool you already own. I tend to use Seaguar fluorcarbon fishing line. While they make some some dedicated leaders, their Abrazx line works fine for bass fishing. I’ve used their types of line for leaders as well when fishing in clear water. Abrazx is just designed to be more abrasion resistant than some of their other offerings, so it makes sense as a leader as it will give you a bit more strength around hazards.
If you’re primarily fishing for pickerel, northern pike, or muskie, consider a wire leader made of titanium, like the Terminator Braided Titanium Leader (50-Pounds, 12-Inch). I’ve found that if you go much below 12-inch you can run into trouble with the leader fouling on hooks (especially on jerkbaits).
Conclusions
Determining when and where to use a leader with braided fishing line isn’t always the most straightforward process, but I hope this article helped. Generally speaking, use a leader when it makes sense and will help you minimize some trait of braid that is undesirable for your specific need, but don’t feel as though you need to use one just for the sake of it.
As always, if you found this article helpful, please consider sharing it so it can help others. You can also feel free to leave a message below or to send me an email with any additional questions. You can also pick up a copy of my book, Fishing with Kids: A Parent’s Guide, which includes other helpful advice.
I have a theory that most of the people who think fishing is boring went fishing as a kid with an adult who used a bobber. In this article, I’ll discuss if bobbers are good for fishing, if they really work, and if you should fish with or without a bobber, especially when you take your kids along.
My Controversial Theory: Fishing with Bobbers and Kids Is A Risky Idea
Some people are going to call me absolutely crazy for even daring to write an article that argues that bobbers aren’t the best way to go fishing with your kids, but hear me out.
While bobbers do work, nothing much to do besides twiddle their thumbs while they waited for something to bite. Sure, when something did bite, the kids probably ran over giddy and screaming, but until then, they were bored or off playing catch or doing something else.
If you ask me, the kids who stuck with fishing and became enamored by it quickly probably started using more proactive techniques that caught them more fish and gave them something to actively do (cast and retrieve) while they were waiting for a bite.
I know I’ll get some comments from people hollering about how they’ve been fishing with bobbers and their kids for years and they love them and pull in crappie after crappie all day. I don’t doubt you, but I’ll bet you’re a halfway decent angler who could make most anything work.
I’m just saying that I’ve seen so many families fishing from shore with bored kids, and there’s usually a bobber floating nearby. I’ve also personally had many days where I started off fishing with a bobber, struggled to get bit, and swapped over to a bare hook or drop shot and started lighting them up in the same area. I think some people rely on the bobber too much and don’t know what to try when it doesn’t work.
These observations and experiences have convinced me that there are often better ways to put my young ones on fish.
Now before we go any further, let me get something out of the way:
I can understand why people ask themselves if they should fish with or without a bobber, and decide to go with one.Bobbers do work well at times for several reasons:
Bobbers work well for keeping fishing hooks out of cover and at a precise depth;
They allow for a gentler pace to fishing as well as multitasking when using many rods;
If something ever bites, kids get a huge kick out of seeing the bobber go under.
So you see, I’m not “anti-bobber.” I’m just “anti-using-bobbers-as-the-way-to-introduce-your-kids-to-fishing-if-you-want-them-to-actually-like-the-sport-and-buy-you-nice-rods-for-father’s-day.”
There’s a difference!
More Detail: Why Bobbers Work
Again, I’m not “anti-bobber” (I feel like I’ll need to keep saying that here). I really don’t want to put you off of them. They can be great, and your kids can catch a ton of fish when them. You should have them in your tackle box, because as you’ll see, there are some times when they’re the ticket to a bite. Here are a few of the benefits, lest I’m labelled a philistine:
They Allow for Some Unique Presentations
There have been plenty of professional fishermen (usually walleye guys) who have cashed checks with the help of a bobber. Often, working a bobber is the only way to apply some unique presentations.
Mike Klein over at Midwest Outdoors wrote a great article about how bobbers allow for a precise presentation for walleye a few years ago. One of the things he discussed was a technique called “power corking.” Basically, you drive your boat around looking for fish on your fish finder and when you see one you immediately let out your bobber right next to your transducer.
I’ve never heard of this before but it might make a believer out of me as it seems like a more active way of using bobbers. It seems to be a deeper water technique as you’d likely spook the fish if you tried to do this too shallow, but it’s almost akin to trolling. In fact, you might just drag a lure behind the boat on your port side while waiting to drop a bobber on your starboard.
I could see this being a really fun way to fish with kids because it would almost turn fishing into a video game for them. As they see a fish appear on the screen, they can release their bail and send a bobber down and wait for a bite.
OK, Mike, you convinced me. Now I’m just an “anti-using-bobbers-as-the-way-to-introduce-your-kids-to-fishing-if-you-want-them-to-actually-like-the-sport-and-buy-you-nice-rods-for-father’s-day-unless-you’re-power-corking” kind of guy.
They Keep Hooks Out of Cover
This is a legitimate strength. Bobbers work well for keeping bait out of cover. For example, it can be very hard to fish a laydown effectively without a bobber, because if you let the bait sink into the tree limbs there’s a good chance it will snag. Even if a fish were to take your offering, there’s a great chance it would wrap your line along the limbs and break you off.
Using bobbers around rocky points would also make sense. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to retie a drop shot rig because it was snagged in some rip-rap.
A bobber allows you to keep your bait up and away from these hazards, while still close enough to entice fish to come out and take a bite. So long as you keep your rod in your hands or very nearby, you should be able to start the battle outside of the cover, which enormously increases your chance of actually landing the fish.
Bobbers are also admittedly useful for fishing for panfish over grass flats with your kids. Drop shots don’t do very well in the weeds, as they get dragged down and buried in the gunk. A bobber is an appropriate way to keep your bait above the canopy and allow you to keep your bait clean and edible.
They Allow Precise Depth Control
Bobbers work great for controlling how deep your bait will sink, as it can only go as deep as your bobber lets it. Slip bobbers are particularly well suited for this role as they are designed to allow an angler to change their depth at will.
Once again, I’ll tip my hat to the experts, this time, pro catfish guide Chad Ferguson. He wrote an informative article about slip bobber rigging for catfish that shows you exactly how to rig one for your preferred depth and included a very easy-to-read graphic showing this off.
I would note that you can also control your depth with a drop shot (you’d just use a longer tag line towards your sinker), but the drop shot is going to rapidly bring the bait to the desired depth. The bobber will allow it to slowly sink to that depth. Sometimes the fish favor one presentation over the other.
They Allow You to Take a Nap!
Ok, so I’m back to jesting about bobbers, but it’s true! You can have a laid back fishing experience if you trust your bobber with all the work and attach a little bell ringer to warn you that a fish in on the other line.
This probably isn’t the best idea with kids–it’s usually a good idea to stay awake and active while they’re playing near the water–but if you could also apply the theory to allowing you to walk away and play catch, or look for frogs, or have a sandwich, etc.
They Allow For Multiple Lines
It’s challenging to fish multiple lines unless you’re using some technique that doesn’t require your constant, active involvement. Bobbers allow you to cover more water in the sense in that you can throw a few out along a wide arc to try and locate fish sooner.
If you’re going to do this, make sure you check your local regulations first as not every state allows anglers to use multiple lines, and most have a cap as to how many angler can use. You “might” be able to use more if you’re with your kids, but then again the game warden might also conclude that they are unlicensed and don’t count towards the rod count.
I’m not a lawyer and can’t give you legal advice, but it would seem prudent to use the most conservative figure available to ensure you don’t have issues.
Kids Enjoy Using Bobbers (When Bobbers Work)
There is definitely something fun and satisfying about seeing a bobber disappear under the waves, and kids will especially get a kick out of this. The problem is that it actually needs to happen.
If you’re in an area where there are bluegills and sunfish, they’ll tend to eat just about anything and you might get to see the bobber disappear often. This is a good recipe for a fun day with your kids. Just make sure that you’ve done your scouting and pinpointed the fish ahead of time as bobbers aren’t usually very effective for covering water quickly (power corking notwithstanding).
If you need help on learning how to scout for fish, check out an article I wrote about preparing for a fishing trip with kids that deals with the topic.
Reasons You Should Fish Without a Bobber
I’d argue that the main drawbacks to using a bobber (at least while fishing with kids) is that they can damage your line if they’re not carefully attached, they can spook the fish in a variety of ways, you can be less likely to hook the fish, and you might turn your children off of fishing forever and doom them to the void and meaningless life of a landlubber.
They Can Damage Your Fishing Line
Frankly, a bobber shouldn’t damage your fishing line at all. Ball bobbers are designed to clip on harmlessly and slip bobbers just slide back and forth without issue. On a normal day of fishing, you’d be just fine.
But we’re talking about fishing with kids here. Your kids. The same kids who stuck all your stamps to the wall and hid a wet sponge on elderly Uncle Donald’s chair. All bets are off.
Kids want to do everything themselves and if that includes attaching a ball bobber then that probably includes kinking or fraying the line in the process. If you attach it wrong, it does risk damaging the line because you are trying to guide it past a metal hook that can knick or cut it.
You can solve this by simply arriving at the lake with the bobber already attached rather than letting your kids do this. If they don’t know it’s a task to complete, they’ll never ask to try it.
Bobbers Can Spook the Fish
A good reason to consider fishing without a bobber is that they can spook fish in many ways:
The fish can get scared by the sound of the splash;
The fish can be wary from the sight; and
The fish can be alerted to danger by the bobber’s weight
The Sound
A bobber (especially a large one) makes a splash when it touches down. This can be much more significant than the splash the bait would have made on its own, and certainly alerts fish in the area that something touched down. This can be good or bad, depending on what mood the fish is in.
You should try your best to let the bobber land softly at the end of your cast. If you have a large splash down, the most likely outcome is that nearby fish will dart away. Though they will likely return, it may take them awhile, and this dead period can really kill your kid’s interest.
The Sight
A bobber is a large, visual indicator to fish that there is something strange going on. If they’ve been caught by these recently, and still remember the experience, they will be more cautious.
The bait itself is also presented in a very unnatural way. Most worms don’t just suspend in a neutral buoyancy. A very hungry, desperate, or inexperienced fish might not notice or care, but I have observed larger bass and bowfin eyeing the target and deciding it’s not worth the risk.
The Weight
When a fish tugs on the bait, the bobber provides resistance that alerts the fish that something is tugging back. If there are a half dozen bluegills all fighting over the scraps, it’s unlikely any will notice, but if that fish is the only one attempting to feed, it stands to reason they might wonder what is going on.
This is minimized by using smaller ball bobbers and can reduced even further with slip bobbers. Always try to use the lightest bobber that you can for the conditions.
You’re Less Likely to Hook Fish
I back this statement up with no scientific studies whatsoever but I will observe that I have caught many fish throughout my life because I was holding the rod and could detect a light bite, which allowed me to immediately set the hook.
If you are simply using a bobber to alert you to the presence of fish, rather than holding the rod and feeling them for yourself, you’re missing several bites. Even if you notice the little twitches of the bobber, you still need to run over, pick the rod up, and then attempt to set the hook. This can take several seconds depending on where you were when you noticed it. These are several seconds for something to go wrong.
Granted, if you’re actually holding the rod while fishing with a bobber, this isn’t going to be an issue, but I rarely see people doing that.
You Will Bore Your Children Right Out of This Sport
I really do believe this, even though I know I’m going to get flak for it. Let’s be clear (again): I am sure that there are plenty of people out there who have successfully taught their kids how to fish by using bobbers and had their kids go on to live long and happy angling lives! I believe you! I really do!
It’s just that I also thinkthat a huge percentage of parents who don’t really know how to fish, but want to try it with their kids, rig up a bobber, kind of throw it out there, and just hope for the best–but the best never comes. I think that’s a recipe for disaster.
Most beginners fishing with a bobber are hedging their bets that a fish will be in the area, or swim by, rather than going out and actively finding them. Again, if you are actually in a good spot, then this doesn’t matter. But if you aren’t, you’re inhibiting your ability to go out and find where the fish are holding so they can be caught more frequently.
Bobbers seem to go hand in hand with lawn chairs, but I’d urge you–if you’re going to use a bobber to try and fish with your kids, leave the lawn chair at home and walk around the pond with them. Make many casts. Try to locate active fish. Keep your kids engaged and enthused.
Bobbers definitely aren’t bad tackle choices, but they aren’t always conducive to keeping your children’s attention. People might say that fishing teaches kids patience, but that’s a relative term. It might gain you about twelve seconds lead time with a four-year-old.
If you brought the lawn chair, I hope you picked a good spot!
Conclusions
Please allow me to briefly sum up the entire article:
I am a bobber snob;
I fear for your children’s sea legs;
Bobbers do work and are actually a great choice in many situations;
All the same, bobbers do tend to be an “all in bet” for beginners;
When the house wins, the kids lose.
Again, I’m biased, but I’ve done a lot of fishing in my day both as a kid, and as an adult with children by my side. Bobbers were never the source of my most memorable moments, though perhaps they were for you.
While I can’t have a website about helping parents teach their kids to fish without reviewing a youth fishing rod combo, I’m a little torn. Normally when I review a product, I actually own it. If I don’t own it, I am seriously considering buying it. In that case, I’ll share my research in case you’re considering buying it too. I value authenticity and am uncomfortable recommending that people part with their money for a product I haven’t personally used.
In that spirit, I want to be completely up front with you: I don’t own the kids fishing rod and reel combos discussed below. I have absolutely no intention to ever buy them. This isn’t because they’re bad, but because I’ve never had a need to buy them. I already had a full compliment of fishing rods I could share with my kids when they were born, so I didn’t need a combo.
The reason that I’m writing this is because there are obviously a ton of parents out there who are looking at these products. I imagine many of you are scratching your head trying to figure out which one is best. Frankly, if you’re looking into one of these combos, there’s a good chance you don’t fish that often and might need some advice.
These combos can be worth it if you were brand new to fishing, as they are almost like a “starter pack”. With that said, many of these combos include a lot of stuff you don’t need, and lack premium components.
So there we are. If you’re interested in my take on these fishing combos, carry on. At the very least, I hope you can trust I’m being real with you.
Why I Didn’t Buy My Kids a Fishing Combo
As I mentioned above, the main reason I didn’t purchase one of these “all in one” fishing rod, reel, and tackle combos for my kids was because I had no need for the tackle. I only needed a rod and reel.
Well, they sell plenty of kids and youth fishing combos that just have the rod and reel and don’t include any tackle. I took a quick look and didn’t buy any of those either for a couple of reasons:
Most Kids Combos Come with Spincast Reels
I found that most of these combos come with spincast reels, which I don’t think are as necessary for kids as other people claim, and which are annoying to me because they almost all come in right-hand retrieve, meaning that my son would learn a retrieve that is opposite of all the other equipment I might eventually hand down to him.
Many people consider spincast reels to be better for children in part because they are “easier” to cast. I suppose they are, technically, but spinning reels aren’t exactly rocket science in comparison.
To cast a spincast reel, your kid needs to (1) push down a little button until they want their lure to cast, at which point they (2) release the button.
To cast a spinning reel, your kid needs to hold onto the (1) line with their finger, (2) flip the bail, and then (3) release the line when they want their lure to cast.
Broken down to its simplest form, we’re talking three steps instead of two. This hardly struck me as worth it when you consider all the drawbacks of spincast gear, so my wife and I spent some extra time with my son and had him casting spinning tackle like a champ at two.
With all that said, some youth fishing combos come with spinning reels. I’d start with those!
Many Combos Come with Equipment You Don’t Need or Want
Just poking around online I’ve noticed that a lot of these combos come with ridiculous looking lures and what appear to be severely over-sized terminal tackle. A few have wide gap hooks that look too large for any of the soft plastics they’re included with, much less the panfish you should be targeting with your kids.
More importantly others have crankbaits and jerkbaits which are equipped with treble hooks and packaged in a unit intended for toddlers. This is… an odd choice … and flies in the face of everything I say about hooks in my post about safety tips for fishing with kids.
Some of these combos also come with weird things like “strike indicators” which are little bells that attach to the line. I suppose if you’re planning on throwing these out and paying no attention whatsoever while you go play catch, these might make sense, but it seems like you’re paying for something you won’t use.
I get the appeal for why people would look at much of this stuff and say, “wow, it has everything I need to get started!” But when a more experienced and discerning eye looks at some of these, the extra equipment doesn’t seem all that useful.
Why Many People DO Buy These Combos
Its clear that these youth fishing combos sell. For one thing, they tend to be bright colors and attract kids from across the store. Secondly, families who are just starting to fish are likely looking for an “all in one” rod and reel combo for their kids because they don’t want (or don’t know how) to put together their own gear like i described in this post.
I understand there is something appealing about walking into a store, buying one item, and having everything that you need. If you are brand new to fishing, I can see why you would go this route. Just remember that you will eventually have to purchase replacement gear piece meal. You wouldn’t buy an entirely new combo just to get some extra hooks.
What You Should Look For In a Fishing Combo for Kids
If your heart is set on buying one of these combos, look for the following things:
I would recommend that you purchase a combo with a spinning reel for the reasons discussed above;
I would steer clear of the “telescopic” rod combos and get an actual fishing rod. Who doesn’t have room for a 5′ pole?
If I bought this for a small child, I would avoid any combo that includes lures with treble hooks. At the very least take, these lures away immediately.
Look at the size of the hooks and ask yourself if a panfish can fit it in its mouth. Remember that your main target with small kids will be small fish. If you buy a combo with large hooks, you won’t catch many sunfish.
Look at the lures it includes. Do you recognize them? Walk through the aisles a bit and see if they’re sold separately. Sometimes these combos are filled with stuff that isn’t very popular on its own. That’s not a great sign.
If I HAD to Buy One of These Combos, I’d Choose…
If I was going to purchase one of these, I’d buy one of the Shakespeare combos. I own several rods and reels that their company produces, and they work well for children. In fact, I think Shakespeare makes the best overall rod for kids, as I discussed in this post.
I’d specifically recommend the Shakespeare “Catch More Fish” combos. These are available with spinning rods, which I prefer. Further, they come with reasonable and useful tackle that should work very well.
These combos come in different “trims” from “youth” to species-specific offerings, and each has different (but appropriate) tackle. For example, the “panfish” combo is specifically marketed to young anglers and actually has what they need.
Why Shakespeare’s Panfish Youth Fishing Combos Is Worth It:
It includes some beetle-spin spinnerbait-type lures. These will catch panfish, which is what you’re looking for. They are also great for teaching casting as they’re meant to be cast and retrieved repeatedly;
The kit comes with grubs. You can rig these on the beetle-spins, or put them right on a hook. As a plus, they come in good, effective colors (white, purple, and chartreuse);
It includes panfish hooks that are small enough for a bluegill or sunfish to fit in its mouth. The hooks also have a long shank which makes it easier to unhook the fish safely;
They come with a few slip shot sinkers. You could use these rig a drop shot, which is one of the best ones to start with when fishing with kids as I discussed in this post;
Though I’m not crazy about fishing with bobbers, they give you a few. They are small enough that they’re appropriate for fishing for panfish.
Shakespeare makes good products for kids. Their panfish combo would be a great first fishing setup for any little angler. You’ll get what you need in one stop, which is handy if you’re in a rush or just getting started.
Other Options
There are several other kits, all of which include wisely-chosen gear that would actually work. It is obvious from researching these that actual fishermen were consulted when putting these together, and all of the combos only include items that would actually work and you could actually use.
You do want to be careful, however, as some of their combos (such as those for bass) include treble hooks. Just be mindful of this if you’re buying this for a child who isn’t quite old enough to handle these lures quite yet.
To Conclude
There is value to purchasing an all-in-one fishing combo for your kids, but you want to make sure that you get one produced by fishermen, for fishermen. There are a lot of products out there on the market that include very questionable choices for tackle. Some of the items included are outright dangerous for young children.
I’d still recommend that you go ahead and just purchase your fishing gear piece meal. With all the tangles and snags that kids or beginners face, you’d be better off buying hooks and sinkers in bulk.
If that’s not in the cards right now or you’re in a hurry and just need something, I do stand behind Shakespeare products in general and recommend that you try out their “Catch More Fish” series of combos.
I hope this article was helpful and potentially saved you a bit of money or at least gave you a better idea of where you should spend it. If you found it useful, please consider sharing it so it can help others. You can also post a comment below or send me an email at johnpaxton@fishingfather.com to let me know what you think and if I need to check out any other combos out there! You can also consider purchasing my book, Fishing with Kids: A Parent’s Guide, which is filled with more great tips for parents.
I really lucked out on my first fishing charter. In just eight hours, my fantastic guide, Captain Mick Maynard, put my wife on pretty much every major game fish Lake Champlain has to offer, exposed us to new fishing techniques, and cemented a friendship that has lasted for years. I’ll do my best in this article to give you tips to choose a fishing charter that provides the same experience!
I couldn’t ask for more in a guide, but I do have to give myself a bit of credit as I did my homework before I ever hired him. Some people skip this step (or just don’t know what to look for or ask) and wind up having a horrible trip.
I hope this post helps you choose the sort of fishing charter captain who will keep you coming back for more fishing trips for years and years, but if there is anything I didn’t answer that you’d like me to expand on, please feel free to send me an email.
Let’s dive into some of the things you should consider when picking your fishing guide.
What is Your Objective With This Charter?
It’s a good idea to ask yourself what your objective is before you start looking for a fishing charter. Your goals will heavily influence which guide you choose.
Are you just looking to try fishing for the first time?
Do you normally fish from shore, but want to take your kids out on a boat in search of bigger quarry?
Are you trying to organize a company team-building day, and want to spend it reeling in some fish?
Are you an experienced fisherman looking to catch a trophy, or to work on refining a certain presentation or technique?
There’s a captain out there for every situation, but this is definitely not “one size fits all,” so if you aren’t clear about what you want up front, you can have a wildly different experience than you were expecting.
What is the Price and What Does it Include?
Before you balk at the cost of fishing charters consider all the expenses that the average captain has to contend with. Boats are an acronym for “Break Out Another Thousand” after all and they got that title for good reason!
Your captain has to pay for the costs of the boat and gear maintenance, insurance, licensing, bait or tackle and, of course, fuel. A fishing guide taking you out to local spots on his bass boat might only have a $20 fuel bill for the day, but if you’re headed offshore then you could easily burn hundreds of dollars worth of fuel during the trip.
With that being said, you still need to ensure that you understand exactly what the price is and what it includes before you leave the dock. Make sure you have accurate expectations surrounding the following:
Is the price per angler or per boat? Getting this wrong could easily sour your entire vacation much less your fishing trip.
If you’re fishing with bait, is it included in the price, or is there a surcharge?
Is there a fuel surcharge?
Are any sandwiches, snacks, or drinks included in this price, or do you need to bring your own?
Is the cost of a fishing license included in the trip, or are you expected to supply your own?
Does the price include the tip?
Does the price include any costs for filleting and preparing fish if you intend to keep them?
Understanding the above will allow you to know what you’re getting into. It also will help you understand if a certain charter is “really” a good deal or not. The captain who is charging $400 all-inclusive for a trip might actually be better than the “$300” trip that doesn’t include fuel, bait, or drinks.
How Much Should You Tip the Fishing Charter Captain or Mate?
If the tip is not specifically included in the price of your fishing charter, you should plan on leaving a 15-20% gratuity for a job well done. This should be paid in cash.
If your charter boat has a mate and a captain, you’ll need to split the tip between them somehow for your fishing trip. The captain has more expenses to cover, but the mate is probably the first one on and the last one off the dock each day, so I’d argue you should tip 50/50.
When choosing how much to tip, bear in mind that there are plenty of things beyond your captain’s control. It’s not their fault if the weatherman lies and tries to kill you, for example. Also, some days just aren’t as good as others for fishing, but as long as the work ethic and enthusiasm is there, your charter captain and mate deserve a tip.
It’s worth remembering that the fishing world is smaller than you might think and you can earn a reputation (good or bad) by your tip or lack thereof. You might find it difficult to book a fishing charter in the future if you stiff someone on the tip today.
Think of a tip as an investment in future charters. If one doesn’t go exactly as planned but you still tip well, you can count on that guide going the extra mile the next time you fish with him.
How Many Hours is the Charter, and When Does It Begin and End?
Most fishing charters last anywhere from 4 – 8 hours, but you’ll want to be clear with the captain as to when your time starts, and also how far away they plan to fish.
It is customary that any time you spend on the boat driving to or from fishing grounds would be included in your 4 to 8 hour package. It would be unusual for a captain to consider time onshore filling out license slips or cleaning fish to be included in the package.
Every charter is going to be a little different but just make sure you understand exactly what you’re buying before you give them a deposit, so no one has hard feelings.
What Kind of Fish Do You Want to Target?
If you want to target a specific type of fish you should choose a charter with an individual who fishes for that species often.
Not everyone out there is a bass fisherman, or likes to target pike. If you’re keen to catch a lake trout or landlocked salmon, you’re probably going to do better with a guide who has downriggers on this boat than one who fishes shallow water 95% of the time from a bass boat.
Most guides have an extensive photo collection on their website or blog. If you don’t see very many photos of the fish you want to catch, that is an indicator that you might want to look elsewhere for your guide.
What Style of Fishing Do You Prefer?
There are some people who think trolling is the absolute worst way on earth to fish. There are some guides who do nothing but this. These two individuals would have an unpleasant day out on the water together.
If you’re new to fishing, you don’t know what you like so you’ll have to go out and try whatever the guide suggests, but if you’ve fished for a long time, you probably know what type of fishing you’d like to do, generally, and what techniques you can’t stand.
For example, I really enjoy mooching for salmon in Alaska, but I absolutely hate bottom fishing for halibut. I’m fine with trolling, to an extent, but find it much more fun if I’m involved with setting up the rod, or at least setting the hook.
It’s important to know what you like so you can ask the guide how they fish and figure out if you’re a good match or not. Honesty is important here – a good fishing charter will tell you straight out they aren’t for you on this trip, which might help you choose them for the next one.
How Much 1:1 Attention Do You Want (or Need)?
If you’re new to fishing it will be far better for you (and the guide) if you let them know that ahead of time. Ask them if they’re used to helping new anglers, and if there is anything you should do before your trip to help you prepare.
You also might want to consider booking a private charter, or one for just a few friends. While there are large party barges that can take several dozen anglers at once, you aren’t going to get much attention from the mates on these, as they’ll simply be overwhelmed by all the anglers out there.
I know it seems a little counter-intuitive to spend big bucks on a small/private charter when you’re just starting instead of spending a small amount of money on a party barge, but the extra cost is for the guide’s undivided attention, and it is worth every penny if you don’t know what you’re doing.
Do You Need Special Gear or Other Accommodations?
You should understand what type of gear the charter captain uses, and ensure that you’re comfortable using it. I once had a charter captain tell me that, “A paid trip is no time to learn to use a baitcaster” and he was on to something.
While we’re on the topic of baitcasters – not all captains have reels in left-hand retrieve. If you aren’t comfortable reeling in with your right hand it can make a trip tremendously less enjoyable (unfortunately, I know this from experience).
Other considerations include seats. My father is getting on in years and can’t fish standing for extended periods, so he always has to make sure his fishing guides have a seat ready for him. He travels all over Alaska to fish and the lodges there all know that he needs a special seat and have it ready for him, but that’s only because he calls them ahead of time to let them know.
If the captain doesn’t have gear that can accommodate you, that isn’t necessarily the end of the world if you know about the problem in time to do something about it, because then you can either bring your own stuff, or have it mailed to the captain ahead of time. If you only learn about it at the dock, you’re out of luck.
What Should You Bring on a Fishing Charter?
In addition to understanding what special accommodations are present or necessary, you also need to confirm that basic provisions will be available, as many won’t. While it’s wonderful if you can choose a fishing charter that is all inclusive, many aren’t and you’ll need to know this going in.
You should plan on packing anything that you feel you’ll need to be comfortable on the water. This means rain gear, an extra sweatshirt, sun tan lotion, food and beverages. If your child needs a potty or some shade, you should be prepared to bring it and not expect that the captain will have it.
Make sure you verify with your captain if you will need to secure your own fishing license ahead of time, or if you can purchase one from them at the dock.
If you’re purchasing a license, is there a particular one you need? For example, on Lake Champlain there are certain areas where a New York or Vermont license will be reciprocal, but there are other large sections where you need one from a specific state. Make sure you discuss this with your guide ahead of time, especially if you’re going to fish in interstate waters.
As to life jackets, while your captain is required by law to provide them, you can also bring along your own if you intend to wear it all day. I’ve invested in a very comfortable life jacket by Mustang Survival and I bring it with me when I book a charter. I’d rather wear that all day than whatever the guide has on hand.
What Should You Wear to a Fishing Charter?
The type of fishing charter you choose as well as the time of year and location will dictate what you wear. In colder climates and times of year, you’re going to get cold — very cold. There are few places as cold as a boat in the middle of the lake. Likewise, few get as hot. Dress accordingly.
A few fishing-specific items I’d consider wearing to a fishing charter include:
A jacket or at least a windbreaker of some sort. Even if it is going to be a warm day, the ride out to the fishing grounds can be frigid due to the wind.
A hat and sunglasses to protect you from the glare.
I’m a huge fan of clothes that offer sun protection. You’re basically out there baking all day. A neck gaiter is a must-have, in my book.
Boat shoes, or at least non skid shoes with light colored rubber soles. First of all, they’ll help you keep your balance and comfort throughout the day. Secondly, you won’t scuff up your captain’s boat!
Catch-and-Release or Catch-and-Keep?
People feel all sorts of ways about catch-and-release fishing, and it’s important that you and your captain are on the same page before you book your trip.
Some captains (especially those who charter offshore) rely on their catch for part of their wages, as they can sell the fish at local market. If you have misgivings against killing your catch, it could make for a bad experience if you didn’t realize they would do this up front.
In contrast, other captains (especially those who charter in freshwater) would prefer to release all the fish so they can catch them again with other clients another day. If you intend to keep the fish for a meal, you’d better let them know ahead of time before they throw supper overboard!
It’s just one of those things you might not think about until it’s too late.
Is Alcohol Allowed?
Not all captains will allow alcohol on their boats, and for good reason. If you like to enjoy a few suds while you’re out there, make sure you choose a fishing charter that allows it. Otherwise, you’ll come back to warm beer that has been sitting in your car all day!
Another reason for checking this policy is if you’re going out with a group of strangers. You might not have the most fun if you get stuck on the boat with an ugly drunk, so you may be better off screening for a charter that forbids alcohol in the first place.
What Type of Boat Does the Charter Use?
Most charter captains will tell you exactly what sort of boat they own and you’d be well-advised to go and google it to make sure it is something you’re comfortable fishing out of. Again, it’s all about setting expectations for yourself and making sure that your dreams aren’t dashed when you pull up to the marina.
There’s a few critical things you’ll want to understand about your captain’s boat:
Does the Boat have a Head (Bathroom)?
Depending on the size of the boat, there may or may not be a bathroom. This is definitely something you should ask the captain beforehand.
A lack of bathrooms aren’t always a deal breaker as there are often nearby marinas that you can pull in for lunch and a break, but this could cut into your fishing time so you’ll want to do your best to be ready for your trip.
Even if the boat does have a head, don’t have very high expectations. They tend to be tiny and crammed, especially if you’re loaded down with rain gear or other heavy clothing.
I’ve encountered my share of boats where the head was used as rod storage. If someone in your party needs to use the bathroom frequently, it would be a good idea to alert the captain or crew ahead of time so they can make sure it is accessible.
How Many People Can the Boat Comfortably Fish?
The size of the captain’s boat (as well as the captain’s license and credentials) will determine how many guests can legally go on the boat. The US Coast Guard provides ratings for each vessel that includes a maximum number of passengers.
It’s important to realize that the maximum number of passengers is often significantly more than the realistic number of people who can fish comfortably. Choose a fishing charter that has enough space for the people you wish to bring.
I own a 2012 Lund Impact 1875 Sport. It is rated for six passengers, but it also has a walk-through windshield that takes up a lot of space. It’s challenging to fish four people out of the boat and six would be very difficult unless we were vertically jigging.
You should know what your guide intends to take you out in, search the internet for pictures of it, and see if it’s really something you want to go out on with four friends or not. Many times, captains network with each other and will be able to accommodate larger groups if you think it makes sense to spread out over more boats.
Is the Boat Exposed to the Elements?
Not all boats are created equal. I’ve fished in Alaska in comfortable, custom-made 37′ cruisers equipped with heated cabins and restrooms. My father fishes each year at another lodge that used a converted landing craft totally exposed to the elements.
Which one would you bring your wife to?
You’ll want to know what type of boat your captain has to help you narrow your selection.
If you’re bringing along a gaggle of kids, a bass boat probably isn’t going to be the best choice.
Should you wish to troll on a hot summer day, you’ll be thankful if you choose a fishing charter captain who has a bimini top on his boat.
If you’re headed to some frontier where the weather could turn at any moment, a heated cabin is a luxury you’ll crave.
Just try and match your expectations and needs with the type of boat your captain has and you’ll be fine. A quick question about his vessel coupled with a quick internet search to confirm what the boat looks like will make for a better experience.
If You’re Going Offshore, Does the Boat Have Multiple Engines?
If you’re chartering a boat offshore (or even in the Great Lakes), you really want it to have multiple engines in case one of them fails. This is an important safety feature as it can be extremely dangerous to lose power, especially in a storm.
If you’re on the Great Lakes, you’d do well to search for a guide who has a kicker motor next to their main outboard. While these small motors won’t get you anywhere fast, they do offer some peace of mind if the big engine fails.
What Do You Know About the Captain?
While it’s a great idea to make sure you understand the fine print of any fishing charter as well as the equipment and boat that you’ll be using, it’s all for nothing if you choose the wrong captain.
You should strive to find someone who is friendly, reputable, knowledgeable, and fully licensed and insured. Checking references is a must. You’re about to fork over a good amount of money to spend an entire day (or more) with this individual, so you’d better get along.
Is This the Captain’s Full-Time Job?
While I’m sure there are plenty of part-time guides who do a fine job, it stands to reason that you have a better chance of having a good experience if you book your fishing charter with a full-time captain, or at the very least a full-time fishing professional (such as a professional tournament angler who guides on the side).
Hiring a full-time captain means that you’re booking with someone who is guaranteed to have been on the lake very recently (usually, yesterday) and knows what’s going on. They’ll be much more in-tune with local conditions and fish movements and much more likely to put you on a good catch.
The part timer might be an excellent fisherman, but if this is the first time they’ve taken people out in a few weeks, you might find that you spend the first part of the day exploring and trying to figure out what works.
Is Your Captain Properly Licensed and Insured?
It’s important to ensure that you choose a properly licensed and insured fishing charter captain.
Chartering on federally navigable waters requires that the captain hold a current OUPV or Master Captain’s license, and a Department of Homeland Security transportation worker’s credential (TWIC). If your guide does not have this, and you’re fishing federally navigable waters, they are not compliant with the law.
What other laws are they ignoring? Are you sure they have life jackets?
As to insurance, you’ll want to make sure that they have proper coverage in case anything happens. Money won’t give you back life or limb, but it can at least pay for unexpected medical expenses due to an accident while on board.
A serious captain would have a proper license, and insurance. You’re trusting your life to this individual, so make sure they’re the real deal.
How Well Do They Know the Area?
It’s important to understand how long your captain has been fishing the area before you commit to hiring them. If you don’t clarify this, you could find that you’re one of the “exclusive first members” that helps them figure out what they’re doing. It just doesn’t make sense to spend several hundred dollars hiring a guide who knows as little about the area as you.
If they admit that they’re fishing a new area, see if you can negotiate a reduced price or extra hours to help them try stuff out. They might go for this because it makes it easier for them to learn about the lake and have better success with future clients.
When Captain Mick first started guiding in Florida, he offered to take me out from dawn until dusk for the price of a regular 8-hour charter, so long as I was OK with trying out a few different spots and helping him figure out some patterns. That was a win-win for both of us. I got to fish extra hours, and he had another person casting and helping him figure out a new lake.
Do They Have any Sponsors or Tournament Wins?
There are plenty of great fishing guides who don’t have any sponsors and don’t fish in any tournaments, much less win them, but it certainly wouldn’t hurt if they had these credentials.
At the very least, participating in tournaments shows that the fisherman puts his money where his mouth is, as the entry fees can be hefty.
Sponsorships are granted to fishermen who are able to move product for the sponsoring company. This is a good sign that they are a reputable fisherman, as companies would not waste time or money on just anyone. All the same, not everyone bothers with seeking a sponsorship, so I wouldn’t let a sponsorship or lack thereof be a deciding factor in how I chose my fishing charter.
What is Their Fish Guarantee, If Any?
Many fishing guides offer a “no fish, no pay” policy, though this isn’t standard across the industry. Even an unsuccessful fishing trip can be a beautiful (and expensive) boat ride, so it isn’t necessarily a warning sign if a guide doesn’t offer this.
Depending on the species you are targeting, it could be more or less likely that you’ll be successful. Muskies aren’t called “the fish of 1,000 casts” for nothing, after all, but if you just wanted your guide to help your kids catch some fish, one would hope they’d be able to find a bluegill or two!
Are They Comfortable Fishing with Children?
Not everyone is comfortable fishing with kids. I can tell you from experience that it presents a whole new set of challenges and some people just aren’t cut out for it.
You should ask your charter captain how often they fish with children, what kind of gear they have for them, and what the minimum age of kid is that they’ll allow on their boat.
You should also understand if they’ll provide worms if your kids are young or if you need to purchase these, as well as ask them what kind of techniques they intend to use for the day, and how well kids have been able to quickly learn them in their experience. If you are going to use worms, ask if there’s a place to store them to keep them fresh. While dead worms work in a pinch, you’re better off with live ones.
If the captain isn’t used to fishing with kids, don’t be afraid to keep shopping around and checking the local fishing forums to see if you can find someone who is better equipped for the challenge. It’s nothing personal; you need to choose a fishing charter captain who will work out well for you. Frankly, if you’re planning to bring kids along, and one captain isn’t up for it, your discretion is better for everyone.
How Can You Find a Good Charter Captain?
OK, so now that you know what to look for in a fishing guide service and captain, how exactly do you go about finding this gem? There’s a few ways that work pretty well:
Magazine Articles
Many fishing magazine articles detail a writer’s experience with a particular guide or lodge. These tend to be descriptive and will give you a good idea about the captain’s history, reputation, and ability.
If you read a great article about a certain technique you’ve wanted to try and notice that it featured a guide in a state you’re about to visit, the stars may just have aligned for you. Give them a call and see if you can book a trip to learn that technique from the master!
Forums
I’ve always been a big fan of forums for unbiased information. Most of the participants are somewhat anonymous and, shall we say, “unrestrained” when it comes to telling it like it is. If you find that a certain guide or service is held in high esteem by these internet warriors, it’s usually a great sign that they’re worth hiring.
Even better is if the guide also posts to the forum. This can give you some great insight into their temperament and disposition. For example, you can see how patiently they answer (sometimes stupid) questions from newer members, and also gain an appreciation for their values based on what topics they choose to reply to.
Internet Search & Interviews
A final way to help you choose a good fishing charter guide is by taking what you’ve learned in this article and applying it to your own research. Just simply Google “fishing charter in [your state]” and see what turns up.
Usually, you’ll find a bunch of websites for different captains. Start clicking on them to see what you can learn from the site itself (boat, terms, types of fish caught, etc.) and then call the captain and have a conversation.
If you do this, please start by asking if now is a good time and requesting a call back later if it isn’t. A good sign would be that the captain requests to call you in the afternoon. This means that he’s out fishing with a client and giving them his full attention, which is what you would want as well! It also is a good sign that his client is being successful, and the captain has his hands full!
Conclusions
While choosing a fishing charter poorly can prove an expensive mistake, if you select them wisely, you can have a very fun and informative time on the water and walk out of the experience with a new friend.
A guide can significantly reduce your learning curve and teach you new tips and tricks to make you a more efficient angler. They’re also a great way to fish from a boat if you lack one, or to go try something new and daunting.
It’s my hope that this article makes the process of hiring them, at least, a little less challenging. If you found it helpful, I’d appreciate it if you would share it so that it can help others.
My wife rolls her eyes when she sees me head off to the tackle shop to purchase more gear. She’ll remind me how fishing doesn’t have to be that expensive of a hobby, as her uncle used to catch fish just fine with a simple rod, reel, hook and line. She doesn’t understand why I think expensive fishing rods are worth it considering that any old pole will catch a fish.
She just doesn’t get me.
My wife is right though – Fishing is only an expensive hobby if you make it one. You can catch fish all day long off of $10 worth of equipment you pick up at at tag sale. On the other hand, you could easily spend thousands of dollars each year traveling to exotic locations in search of giant fish.
As with all things in life, there’s a balance. In this article, I hope to give beginners some insight into how to strike that balance. I hope to help you avoid the “bait monkey,” and make some informed decisions about how to spend your hard-earned cash on one of life’s great necessities: fishing lures.
What is “The Bait Monkey,” Anyway?
The “Bait Monkey” is a term used to describe how fisherman will run out to the tackle shop to empty their wallets each paycheck. It’s almost like there’s some enchantress on our shoulders, singing a magical tune like the Sirens who tempted Odysseus towards the rocks. Fishing wouldn’t be half as expensive of a pastime if it wasn’t for this critter.
Thanks to the Bait Monkey, we just can’t help but spend more and more money on the latest lure! Our tackle boxes become lined with a hundred different crankbaits even though we only ever throw three. We also outfit our bass boats with the latest electronics even though we know we’re just going to cast towards the same familiar shoreline!
We are enchanted by this Bait Monkey and beyond all salvation, but it’s not too late for you!
I would implore you to do your best to keep fishing economical. Do buy quality items that will last. Don’t let the Bait Monkey guide you towards the rocks of mortgage foreclosure, divorce, or (gasp!) defaulting on your boat loan.
What Fishing Equipment Do You REALLY Need?
What, pray tell, are these quality items you so desperately need, and how will you recognize them? Well, when it comes to essential fishing equipment, it’s actually pretty simple:
A fishing rod. Note, it’s not worth getting an expensive rod to start. The St. Croix Triumph makes a good entry level rod. You can read my review about it here.
You need a reel to match the rod. If you start with a spinning rod, the reel will be much less expensive. I recommend either a Pflueger Trion or Pflueger President if you want to splurge slightly. Get it in size 30 or 35. Make sure you only put a spinning reel on a spinning rod. Read my article about why you should never mismatch here.
Fishing line of some sort. There’s nothing wrong with the old standard, Berkley Trilene XL. If you’re just starting out at this great sport, you’re going to go through a lot of fishing line, and this stuff isn’t expensive.
You need a hook for that line. No need to go crazy here. Just get something light, like an Eagle Claw long shank offset hook. They’re inexpensive, good to learn on, and work well for a drop shot.
Bait for the hook. You can most likely find some nightcrawlers at a nearby gas station. If you don’t want to use live bait, I’m a big fan of Gulp! products. Some days they really do live up to their boast that they outfish live bait.
You probably need a fishing license, but check your local regulations. Some states don’t require seniors or younger children to have one.
That’s about as complicated as it needs to be, folks. If you own, beg, borrow, or steal these six items, you can be a fisherman. I wouldn’t recommend the stealing part though. Karma is a dangerous mistress and you’re about to play with hooks.
How Much Should You Spend On Fishing Gear?
I’m not going to sit here and pretend that I know your financial situation. Only you can make the decision as to how much you want to spend on your fishing rod, reel, line, or tackle. Some people need to find tag sale steals to complete a fishing setup for $10. I’ve known others to spend over $1,000 for just one rod and reel combo.
It’s impossible for me to tell you how much to spend on your setup. That is far too situation-specific. I will try to explain how you should apportion that money. In other words, I’ll help you understand which of the five items above (rod, reel, line, hook/tackle, bait, and license) you should spend the most money on, and which ones you can skimp on and still get by.
The Fishing License
Unless you’re very young, or in some cases a senior citizen, there’s no getting around the need for a fishing license.
Exact age range will vary state by state, but for the most part, younger children are exempt.
Some states will allow senior citizens to obtain a fishing license for free, but the expectation is often that they actually carry one. In other words, you need to go through the hassle of getting one, but won’t pay for it. Government, eh?.
Most states offer fishing licenses that last the entire season or shorter periods (3,5, and 7 days are common). States vary in what types of fish they’ll let you target, or even what waters you can fish in. Some states require you to pay extra for certain trout rivers or to fish in the ocean, for example.
Some states have “Free Fish Days” where they’ll let anyone try the sport without a license. This is a one-time deal and might not fit well with your plans. It’s hard to imagine any other equipment (rod, reel, etc.) that would make sense to buy if you were only going to use it once.
There’s an age old saying that “It’s called fishing, not catching,” and this saying is there for a reason. Even if your state has one of those “Free Fish Days,” I wouldn’t plan on catching something the first time out, so you should probably invest in a license so you can give this a real try.
Fishing Line
I’m a bit torn on what to recommend here. One part of me says, “If they’re new, they’re just going to get a ton of tangles or birds nests and go through a lot of line,” but the other part of me says, “They’ll have less line memory, tangles, and potentially birds nests if they get better line in the first place.” My goal is to help you make fishing less expensive of a hobby, but this is one of those darned if you do, darned if you don’t moments.
Best Fishing Line for Beginners: Monofilament
As I mentioned before, I think you should find a happy medium by sticking with Berkley Trilene XL while you’re getting started. It is a monofilament line that has been around for ages and is battle-proven. It is fairly easy to work with and reasonably priced, so you’re less likely to have trouble with it, but even if you do, you won’t waste much money if you need to respool.
Monofilament is also great because it’s safer to use around kids since it is less likely to cut them than braid, so if you’re reading this trying to learn how to take the whole family out, you can’t go wrong with Berkley Trilene XL. If you’re concerned with fishing on lighter line, read this article for some tips on helping prevent fish from breaking it.
Another Option: Braid
If you did want to use braid, I have Power Pro Spectra Fiber Braided Fishing Line spooled on most of my reels. I’ve been using it for a few years but I do have to admit that when I first started using it, I had a lot of trouble with it because I wasn’t reeling it onto the reel appropriately. It was an expensive learning curve!
(The trick to save you this same hassle and expense is simply to put on a backing of monofilament before you tie on the braid. Just reel on some monofilament first, then connect it to the braid and continue going. You won’t have an issue of your line slipping and will save yourself some cash).
Fishing Rod
If you want to prevent fishing from becoming too expensive, you need to choose your fishing rod carefully. While expensive rods are certainly worth it over time, you really don’t need anything fancy if you’re just getting started. Instead, you could use whatever you can come up with in a tag sale, or whatever you can find on sale at Amazon or elsewhere.
I do feel you’d be better off starting with a spinning rod. There are some who will tell you that only a baitcaster can cast large lures but this is only partially true. While you would probably want a baitcaster if you were going to toss huge muskie lures all day long, just about any bass lure will do perfectly well on a spinning rod and reel.
Spinning rods tends to be less expensive than baitcasting equipment, for what it’s worth. You also need to consider that entry-level baitcasting reels can be very hard to use. A $40-$60 spinning reel will serve you perfectly well, but it can be hard to find a baitcaster in that range that would work well for beginners without giving you fits.
What Spinning Rod Should I Buy?
I’d recommend that you look for a medium-heavy power, fast action spinning rod about 6’6″ to 7′ long for your first rod. I’d purchase one that has a reputation for durability as you’ll be making many mistakes as you start. A Shakespeare Ugly Stik Elite would make a good choice for a beginner.
As you’ll see in that link, the Ugly Stik Elite comes in many sizes and powers. If this was your first and only rod, I’d recommend a medium-heavy power and fast action as that will work well for spinnerbaits and plastic worms. Although not the best choice, it would be passable for crankbaits and topwater lures (including hollow-bodied frogs) as well. This makes this type of spinning rod an all-around good choice.
If I only had $100 to spend on my entire fishing rod/reel combo, I would invest more money in the fishing reel than the rod (Note: this advice only pertains to a parent’s fishing rod. If I was buying for a child, I’d reverse this advice, as reels don’t hold up well to children).
A rod is a rod is a rod, frankly. A more expensive rod is only really worth it if you’re using techniques that require great sensitivity and precision. For most techniques (especially those a beginner will use), a regular rod will do just fine to hook a large fish. A reel, on the other hand, is the item that’s going to help you land that trophy.
A quality reel will work better, retrieve smoother, and come with a better drag system that will help you land larger fish. Slightly more expensive reels also tend to weigh less, which makes a big deal if you’re using it for several hours.
Trying to fish with a low-end reel isn’t much fun. They don’t have as many ball bearings, are more prone to breaking, and often have unsophisticated drag systems that can cost you fish if a big one makes a sudden run.
I can fish with a “lower end” rod (in fact, one of my favorites only cost about $50) all day, but I hate fishing with entry-level fishing reels. I don’t care if it makes my hobby a little more expensive, it isn’t as much fun fishing with a cheap reel.
This doesn’t mean that you need to break the bank, as quality companies like Plfueger offer reels in reasonable price ranges that are smooth, powerful, and will last for years with a modicum of care. The workhorse in my arsenal is the Pflueger President. It equips about 80% of my lineup.
Inexpensive Fishing Lures and Techniques to Try
If you’re not careful, you can quickly run out of money buying fishing lures. You would think that a $5 fishing lure wouldn’t be the most expensive aspect of this sport, but they add up quickly. I remember one year I headed to the local sporting goods store for their Black Friday sale. By the time I was done, the clerk asked with some trepidation: “Sir, are you ready for your total?” Never a good sign!
If you’re just getting started, or want to keep fishing inexpensive in general, I’d recommend a minimalist approach. You don’t need to purchase a dozen different types of lures, and if you did, you’d probably just find that you bounced between them too frequently to give any a chance to work, anyway.
You could minimize things to such an extent that you’re only using three types of lures and find success:
Spinnerbaits
A spinnerbait is a very simple lure with a bent wire frame that is a great lure for beginners because it is so simple to use: cast it out, and then reel it in. Spinnerbaits come in a variety of colors and sizes and price. If you’re just starting, don’t feel as though you need to buy an expensive model as an entry level spinnerbait will catch fish just as well. A Strike King Bleeding Spinnerbait is a good choice. They catch many fish, they are fairly durable, and they don’t break the bank.
An argument could be made to purchase a Terminator titanium spinnerbait (pictured below). While they are a bit more expensive, they’re made of titanium that springs back after being bit. An issue with steel spinnerbaits is that larger fish tend to demolish them and bend the frames terribly. Sometimes they can be bent back, other times they can’t. You don’t have that issue with the Terminators titanium spinnerbaits. They will, however, eventually snap from becoming brittle. It’s hard to tell when this is going to happen.
Drop Shot Hooks and Sinkers
The drop shot is hands-down my favorite rig for taking kids or beginners out and putting them on a fish. If you’re just starting and want to build your confidence, learn how to rig one of these up and fish them.
I wrote a fairly detailed post talking about this technique (as well as other basic skills you need to take kids fishing) in my post here. I’d suggest reading through it to help you learn how to use this rig.
The only issue with this technique is that the hooks and especially the sinkers can get expensive as you’ll lose many of them. If you find them on sale, you’ll want to buy them in bulk as you’ll go through many. I can’t link you to some in good conscious because you’re going to lose so many of them, you really just want to grab whatever is on sale at the moment. The brand really doesn’t matter.
One thing you will need to consider is if you want to purchase lead sinkers or tungsten ones. Tungesten are more expensive, but I think the way the world is going, lead may not be available forever. There are already some states, like Massachusetts, that ban lead fishing sinkers.
Plastic Worms
A plastic worm is a great compliment to spinnerbaits and drop shots. You can rig these in several different ways and make them weedless if necessary by burying the hook into the worm via a method called a “Texas Rig,” or just rig them “Wacky Style” and let them sink enticingly in open pockets between weeds.
You can buy many types of worms for wacky rigging, but my favorite is the ubiquitous Yamamoto Senko. They’re pricier than some competitors, but they’re supple and just work amazingly well. I prefer them in the 4″ and 5″ sizes, and tend to buy them in various shades of green, brown, and black. You can catch some really large bass on these and they’re very easy lures for kids to use – just toss them out and let them sink. Then raise them up with a few twitches and reel in slowly before letting them sink again – most hits will come as the worm falls.
One concern with plastic worms is that they can get very expensive if you’re wacky rigging them as they tend to pull out easily from the hook. A solution is to invest in little plastic o-rings that push onto the worm as shown in the photo below. This small investment will let you get substantially more use out of the worms and will save you a lot of money in the long run. The product I linked in this paragraph comes with a handy tool for putting the o-rings on your worms as well. I carry one and recommend it.
Bait
Remember that uncle I was telling you about who never bought anything expensive to support his fishing hobby? He used bait. Bait can be free. Assuming you have a garden shovel and live anywhere near wet dirt, you can find worms and night crawlers to fish with. You can also make use of your leftovers from lunch, assuming your area doesn’t consider that littering.
You need not spend any money whatsoever on bait, and doing so would be a luxury. Of course, $2 for a box of 12 night crawlers will spare you the trouble of searching for worms on your hands and knees. I think it’s an easier pill to swallow than a $6 coffee you could make in five minutes for thirty cents.
You can also buy worms in bulk. I use Windsor Wholesale Bait and have been very happy with their service. Just make sure you have enough room in your fridge!
If you do buy worms in bulk, you’ll need to come up with some sort of carrying case for them. I like the Zebco Lil Wormcooler as it is insulated and has a handy loop that you can attach to your belt with a clip (which isn’t included). This means it’s one less thing you need to carry in your hands while you go beat the bank.
Conclusion: Fishing isn’t an Expensive Hobby… Perhaps.
Truth be told, I’ve been bitten by the bait monkey pretty badly in my life and as a result have way more tackle than I could ever use. I’ve turned fishing into a very expensive sport–much more expensive than it ever needed to be.
Fishing can be very inexpensive and you should be able to get everything you need to have a good time out there for less than $100. In fact, if I was starting, that’s exactly what I’d aim to do – get into the sport for less than $100 and then see how I like it.
So, to summarize, if you want to keep fishing inexpensive, remember that expensive rods, reels, and other gear aren’t always worth it. Instead, find an inexpensive spinning rod, match it with a decent spinning reel, put on some decent line and buy bare-bones tackle to start (or dig up your own worms).
This is what you need to go fishing. Anything else is gravy. If you keep it simple and stick to what you actually need, fishing can be one of the least expensive hobbies out there.
Hopefully this article kept a few dollars in your pocket. If you think it could help others, please consider sharing it. You also might consider purchasing my book, Fishing with Kids: A Parent’s Guide, for other advice on items you do (and don’t) need to go fishing successfully.
One of the fun things about writing this blog is that I get to search the internet looking for different questions about fishing that beginners are asking so I can write an article that answers the question and helps them. Today, we’ll discuss two of the ultimate beginner questions: what is the difference between a spinning reel and casting reel, and can you use a spinning reel on a casting rod? While we’re at it, we’ll discuss if a fishing rod can break if it’s bent the wrong way, because if you’re going to mismatch equipment, this is a real concern.
Yes, you can put a spinning reel on a casting rod in a pinch and you might even find the combination serviceable for light fishing, but there are several drawbacks. (1). You’ll have reduced casting distance. (2) There is the potential for damaging the rod. (3) Your rod will have reduced power and action for the blank. (4). Everyone who doesn’t have a life will be laughing at you, or at the very least rolling their eyes.
Let’s talk a little bit about these in detail so you can make an informed decision before you head off to the lake with one of these mismatched combos.
Spinning vs. Casting Reel – What’s the Difference?
It’s beyond the scope of this article to discuss all the differences between spinning reels and casting reels but you do need to at least know what they look like and how they generally work to understand why you shouldn’t swap the two.
A spinning reel is designed for use with a spinning rod. These reels are meant to be mounted on and fished from the underside of a rod, so it is facing towards the ground while you’re reeling.
Line is kept on the spinning reel by way of its bail. In the photo below, look at how the line leaves the reel and bends in a 90-degree angle before continuing on towards the rod tip. The point where it bends is called the line roller, and the golden semi-circle extending away from that is called the bail.
To release line, you would “flip” the bail by moving it up towards the top of the spinning reel. This releases line from the spool (the part the main bulk of line is wrapped around), as it is no longer kept under tension by the bail and line roller. Note, the spool does not spin while line is being released. It only spins while line is being reeled back on.
A casting reel is designed for use with a casting rod. These reels are meant to be mounted on and fished from the top of a rod, so it is facing towards the sky while you’re reeling.
Line is held onto the spool by a lock which is disengaged by pressing the spool release button at the back of the reel. This allows the spool to spin freely as line is stripped from it. To reengage the spool lock, one turns the reel handle.
The different design of these two reels necessitates use on different types of rods. Line from a spinning reel releases much further away from the rod than it would from a casting reel, which sits much closer. Thus, the line guides on the rod are aligned differently.
Let’s examine that a bit further as I discuss the first reason you don’t want to use a spinning reel on a casting rod:
1. While You Can Use A Spinning On A Casting Rod, It Won’t Cast As Far
If you’re seriously considering trying a spinning reel on a casting rod, I doubt you’ll care about the three other concerns I’ll raise in this article, but you should care about this one. Everyone benefits from longer casts.
If you look at a spinning rod you’ll notice that the first two line guides closest to the handle tend to be much further out than the line guides further up the blank. This is to accommodate the fact that line leaves the spinning reel farther away from the rod than it would on a casting reel.
By putting a spinning reel on the wrong type of rod, you’re risking reduced casting distance because the line can no longer flow as naturally or evenly. Instead, it has to immediately bend towards line guides that sit much closer towards the blank on a casting rod.
This immediate deflection is going to cause friction which is going to reduce casting distance. Does this really matter if you’re just going for panfish off a dock, or even just fishing for fun? Probably not.
On the other hand, if you’re fishing spinnerbaits or other lures where you want to cover a lot of water, the cumulative effect of multiple casts at a reduced distance could arguably translate to many less fish caught over the course of a day.
Just picture this: If you lose 3-5 yards on your cast because you’re using improper equipment, that’s 9-15 feet of water that potentially holds fish that won’t see your lure on that cast. If you make 40 casts an hour (which is a pretty conservative figure) and fish for three hours, you’re looking at 1,080 – 1,800 feet of untouched water. A lot of fish could hide there!
2. Using the Wrong Reel Has Potential for Rod Damage
I will admit that I’ve never put a spinning reel on a casting rod in the first place, much less broken a rod by doing so, but there seems to be a heavy debate out there on if putting a spinning reel on a casting rod (or putting a casting reel on a spinning rod) endangers the rod and makes it more likely to break when bent.
How Fishing Rods are Built
The reason for this concern is because fishing rod blanks (the main “rod” part) all have a spine that is formed during their construction.
Fishing rod blanks are hollow and are built by rolling a sheet of graphite or fiberglass over a metal mandrel. Doing so creates a section of overlap called the “spine.” Because of this overlap, this section is thicker than the rest and is considered the “backbone.”
The side directly opposite the spine is thinner and will bend easier, so the objective when building a rod is to align the line guides or “eyes” are opposite to the spine of the rod blank. This way, when a fish strikes, the rod will bend towards the softer side and not against the spine.
Will A Fishing Rod Break If Bent the Wrong Way?
Some people argue that by putting a spinning reel on a casting rod, or a casting reel on a spinning rod, you end up forcing the rod to bend in the opposite direction than it was intended, against its spine, and this can risk catastrophic failure.
The jury is definitely out on that one. There are a lot of people repeating it, but then several others who don’t seem to think it’s a problem. I’ve seen a few results on popular forums where experienced rod builders have taken both sides of the issue. This is clear as mud.
I tried to figure it out myself by taking one of our less expensive rods and just bending it every which way, and I didn’t notice any difference in how far the rod would bend, or feel as though it was about to break.
I’m not sure I’d try it on one of my nicer St. Croix fishing rods, but on the other hand I’m fairly certain (much more than a hunch really) that if you’re fishing with a high-end fishing rod, you probably are going to have the correct type of reel for it.
On the other hand, if you’re just starting out and found this crazy combo in your granddad’s shed, or pieced it together for a few bucks at a local tag sale, does it really matter if the rod eventually breaks?
3. A Mismatched Rod and Reel Can Alter the Rod’s Power and Action
This one I’d definitely believe. Fishing rods are carefully crafted to ensure that they meet manufacturer standards for power and action.
Power is the rod’s resistance to bending in the first place, while action refers to where along the blank it will bend (a fast action would bend near the tip, a moderate action further down towards the middle).
Altering the rod in any way is likely to change this. If you don’t believe me, have a rod re-tipped after you break it. Compare it against the same rod, undamaged. The shorter one is going to feel different (usually less flexible) than its unbroken sibling.
If you are mismatching your rod and reel type, then you’re using the rod in a way the manufacturer never intended or designed for. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but it is something to consider. You might find that the rod performs a bit differently is all.
This could be a deal breaker for someone who demands precision, but I again suppose that if you’re the type of person who is doing this, the rod’s power and action probably aren’t at the top of your concerns!
4. “They’re All Going to Laugh at You” If You Use a Spinning Reel on a Casting Rod
Sometimes you just want to “fake it ’til you make it,” but if you’re using a spinning reel on a casting rod (or vice versa), you aren’t fooling anyone. This isn’t really fair as the reason you’re using this strange combo may simply be it’s all you stumbled into and could afford, but such is life.
There are plenty of people across the world who have the intestinal fortitude to mismatch a spinning reel and casting rod, who brave all the dangers I warned about, and who catch fish regularly. It will work, but you are going to look silly doing it.
Granted, this drawback really shouldn’t matter to you as a grown adult (what do you care what someone else thinks of you?), but it might matter to your kids. Bullying is tough these days and even if experiencing it can teach resilience, we shouldn’t set our children up for it on purpose.
If you see someone out there using their rod this way, cut them a break and don’t be rude. You don’t know what their circumstances are. This might be all that they can afford, or perhaps it’s all they know. You can offer assistance or insight but be kind when you do so and don’t be a jerk about it. The world is full of jerks and us fishermen and women need to stick together.
Conclusions
As discussed, while you certainly “can” use a spinning reel on a casting rod, there are several good reasons why you shouldn’t aim to. It’s one thing to just pick up a couple of odds and ends at a tag sale and throw them together to make things work, but you certainly shouldn’t buy a mismatched rod and reel new.
If you do, there’s a good chance you’ll break your fishing rod because it bends the wrong way, and an even better chance that you won’t get to use it to its full potential. It would be a lot like trying to drive in a nail with the butt of a screwdriver. Yeah, it’s passable if it’s all you have, but certainly not recommended.
If you’re new to fishing and are looking for some tips on what type of gear you should buy, consider checking out my post on the basic skills you need to take your kid fishing. It will set you up with a rod and reel combo suggestion as well as discuss what other gear you should buy.
I also have a detailed post on whether or not expensive fishing rods are really worth it. Reading this might shed some insight that can save you a few dollars to put towards a reel that matches the rod.
Finally, if you’re on a tight budget and need to find a spinning rod to go with your spinning reel, consider reading my post about how to buy used fishing rods with confidence as this is something I do frequently that saves me a lot of money and allows me to get some quality items for a great price.
As always, I hope you found this article helpful. If you did, please consider sharing it so it can help others too.
Thanks,
John Paxton
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